My interview with my friend and colleague Ruth Phillips.
Ruth Phillips is a modern and baroque cellist, a mindfulness coach, founder of The Breathing Bow and co-founder of InsideOut Musician and a writer. Alongside her rich and diverse career as a concert cellist and teacher. Ruth is internationally sought after as a performance coach and meditation teacher, helping people who suffer from tension, stage fright or lack of focus overcome the physical and mental strains of the music profession.
Ruth primarily works with instrumentalists, but her insights into the source of suffering when we practice, how the body holds and moves with the breath and how to prepare for performance using meditation and loving kindness are very powerful and equally applicable to singers and actors.
I do hope you enjoy our conversation where we talk about all these things and more. ❤️
You can find more about Ruth at:
On Facebook
https://www.facebook.com/ruth.phillips.752
And Instagram
https://www.instagram.com/ruthphillipscello/
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Thank you for listening!
Click here for show notes and messy transcript
Ruth Phillips: Practice the standing back. And that is a really wonderful way to, to, um, deal with the fear of losing control. I think that is one of the biggest fears, mm-hmm. Of losing control in front of other people.
Julia Norton: Hello and welcome to your Free Voice with me, your host, Julia Norton. This podcast is for people who use their voice professionally or for fun, and they want to understand how it works a bit better.
Or to get over old stories that might be holding them back. Whatever level you’re playing at right now, my goal is to bring you lots of actionable stuff from the technical to the creative, to the deeply woo, to help you free your voice.
Hello, and welcome to episode 39. I’m really excited to share this episode with you. I’m interviewing my colleague and old friend Ruth Phillips. Ruth Phillips is a modern and baroque cellist, a mindfulness coach, founder of the Breathing Bow, co-founder of Inside Out Musician. And a writer alongside her rich and diverse career as a concert cellist and teacher Ruth is internationally sought after as a performance coach and a meditation teacher, helping people who suffer from tension stage, fright, or lack of focus overcome the physical and mental strains of the music profession.
This is a longer episode than usual. We go really deep into things like stage fright, mindfulness, uh, how to practice breath. Um, she’s got some lovely, lovely deep insights. And, uh, so if you can’t listen to it all in one go, come back and take it in a couple of bites. Enjoy my interview with Ruth Phillips.
I am very, very thrilled to have with me today, Ruth Phillips. The, uh, internationally renowned cellist, uh, mindfulness teacher, yoga person all round, uh, creative soul, uh, to talk to me a little bit about breath, working with string players, working with mindfulness, working with performance anxiety, all those kinds of things.
Who knows what we’ll talk about actually, Ruth. But, um, welcome, welcome to the podcast and thanks for taking the time.
Ruth Phillips: Oh, thank you, Judy. It’s so great to hear to see you and be with you. My old friend
Julia Norton: from a long time ago.
Ruth Phillips: Long time ago. Yeah,
Julia Norton: so Ruth and I met on the Voice Women therapy training at which we did together in London from 1998 to 2000.
Pretty much was when we were doing our qualifying and everything. Right. So it has been a long time. Ruth played the cello beautifully at my wedding and all kinds of things like that. So we have, uh, known of each other and been with each other for a very long time. Um, and I’ve gotta dive straight in actually, because after our work on the voice therapy training, when we were working, rolling around in shadow and dealing with our own personal stories and all that kind of thing, I often talk to people about how.
There seemed to be at that point, this kind of division of, um, when you finished your qualifications, people went on to train more and become psychotherapists or they stayed in the creative realm. There was a just a natural branching out really, rather than a division. And I remember really being very caught for a moment when I moved to San Francisco shortly after the training because I thought, oh, but I love all this.
Depth work. I love, I love the shadow work and the j and all that stuff, but I still have to sing and perform and be a creative person. So I chose to stay on that track. And you are another one of the, the ones that stayed in the creative realm, but who has brought all the depth into it. Do you wanna talk a little bit about how you work now with, with musicians and, and working with the deep self in a way?
Ruth Phillips: Yeah. Julia, it’s interesting ’cause we, you and I both sort of circled back, I think from rather drafted training, I would say. Um, it would, yes. I mean, just to go back firstly to what you were saying about how we, how we responded to that, uh, training was, um, I think for me you expressed it really well in saying rolling around in the shadow and there was a lot of that and there’s this.
Time and a place for that. And what I felt, my response after that training was to actually get very, very quiet.
Speaker 5: Mm-hmm.
Ruth Phillips: It was very, it was loud, it was dramatic. I think I came from quite a dramatic and loud world and possibly also family. Um, where, you know, one’s personal dramas were. The forefront often, you know, as a performer, often that we are encouraged to express ourselves and put on a show, you know?
And um, and there was something in me that really needed to get quiet. And I think there are a few of us that did that too. And I, I like Caroline for example. Um, went very much into yoga and then meditation as almost as a, a necessary healing process after that. A com in a way to try to complete. It was great work, but it left a lot of things open and unhealed and I made quite a few mistakes I think in that training, uh, in my, if I can be honest about that now, in, in my, when I was doing the practical work.
I now realize that I left quite a lot of people open and vulnerable in their drama, rolling around in their shadows. You put it brilliantly. And so I felt a, a really important thing for me was to learn how to close that, to be gentle, to learn to be kind. That’s been pretty much the direction since that training.
So it doesn’t quite answer your question, but I, it, it has a, it has a bearing on the direction that I then chose, if that makes sense.
Julia Norton: Yeah, no, it does absolutely make sense. And I think that, um. Uh, none of us who were on that particular tra particular training could deny the drama of it and, and how we coped with it.
And I think what it did for me, because it gave me so much, I mean, my career since then has been based on that work. I mean, the work is, uh, extraordinary, right? But at the same time, when I was first working with groups and individuals. There were things I did specifically to not make it anything like that, right?
Like for example, I would never take a voice movement journey as long as we would do them thing. You know, like keep it in the container, keep it, keep it a smaller taste so you can kind of dip in and then you have time to get raveled, as it were, rather than unraveling and just staying spaghetti on the floor like.
You know, you unravel, but you have time to ravel, you know? Um, so yes. But I think, um, what I’m asking you is about this connection because before we met each other, certainly, um, from when I was in my late teens, I realized that I needed to find something that was gonna answer this question of the connection between the emotions.
The voice, right? Our, our deeper, uh, journey as a person rather than it just being a performing perfectionist thing. If I can get these trails right, if I can do the ornaments, if I can sing loud enough, then it’s good, but I felt like I see people are moved, right? People that are trying to sing, they’re moved.
There’s an emotional story underneath, and I wanted to get to the bottom of that, even as a teenager. And I think that’s the question. I’m. I’m throwing to you is, I recognize that in you too when you’re working with string players. You know, it seems to me that it’s, your approach is very different. To other string teachers.
And, and I think it’s valid on this podcast, which is about your free voice, because we are, this is a voice, right? How, how one approaches one’s instrument and, and shares that in the world. So do you wanna talk a little bit about how you came up with the breathing bow and that element of your work? Well,
Ruth Phillips: actually, I’ll just get back to what you were saying just before about Yeah.
Um, so, so the, the, the whole thing about, um. Expression is a very interesting subject and I don’t really, I mean, it’s a real discussion for me, an ongoing discussion, which I’m to have with you because for me. Expression. Actually, I was just listening to one of your previous podcasts, I can’t remember her name, but the lady was talking about accents and it was very interesting because
Julia Norton: yeah, Rachel,
Ruth Phillips: your Jian work as well.
There are so many parts of us, um, we can identify with one part of ourselves and sometimes we identify with the fearful part or the angry part or whatever. But for us as musicians who are playing a score, which is not the same as people who are necessarily those people who are improvising or composing, but who are playing a score.
In a way, there’s this fantastic paradox of when we can take ourselves out ourselves, so, you know mm-hmm. There are many can understand that, but if we can take ourself out of it and, and, and not identify so much with the different. I think what happens in my experience is we get to a deeper source, a place where we’re all connected, where we actually connect with a composer, where we actually connect with the audience, where, which is where we really touch our inter interdependence.
And in the training that I’ve had, one of the most liberating this, this is, this is the training to be a mindfulness I’ve done with, um, Tara Brock and Jack Cornfield pretty much. I was very, very lucky. Um, but in, in that, um, there is this sense that you, that this expression of the fear and the anger and the joy that actually connects us rather than separates us.
So part of this process of self-express, the self-expression is just a very interesting topic to me. Mm-hmm. Attached to a kind of smaller, restricted. Self, which most of our
Speaker 5: Mm,
Ruth Phillips: most of ourselves are, aren’t they? Mm-hmm. In some fulfilled with biases and restrictions and Yeah. Social con, you know, conforms and, um, sorry, that’s probably not a word, but doesn’t matter.
Um, and, and actually there’s this larger self, there’s this hu there’s this humanity.
Speaker 5: Mm-hmm.
Ruth Phillips: So the question is, is there an individual in that, you know, I found myself give my most, have my most, um, individual moments, if you like, by connecting to that deeper well mm-hmm. Shared humanity.
Julia Norton: Yes,
Ruth Phillips: that answers your question, but that is something that really interests me.
Julia Norton: I think that’s really fascinating. I love that you cycled back to it because it’s funny, isn’t it? Sometimes these expressions that they’re just, they’re things that we’ve said forever, that they’re totally in the language, self-expression, blah, blah. Right? I hadn’t even occurred to me particularly how, you know, it’s a very ego-driven, you know, ego in the union kind of form of it, of the fight to be, to, to survive, right?
That, you know, get my needs met, blah, blah self. Um, and what you are talking about. Which is what we’re aiming at, you know, as, as a singer, whether you’re improvising or not, what you’re wanting to tap into, right? Is that source, that kind of connection where you’re not thinking, where it’s coming through you, like a, some kind of, uh, connection to other.
Right. And it sounds a little bit like you’re talking about, even though when you’re working with a score. It’s not a rigid thing. If you are able to take all your attachment away from getting it right, playing it fast enough, is the conductor giving me stink eye? You know, all those kinds of things. And instead, like you’re saying, opening up to the, the, your, your fellow players opening up to the audience that is listening to you, opening up to the composer.
Ruth Phillips: Opening up to, to the moment what is happening.
Julia Norton: Yeah. Right. Yeah.
Ruth Phillips: My body, what does my, you know, the, these are, these are places we rarely dare to be, and we actually rarely dare to be in the moment. And
Julia Norton: yeah, I
Ruth Phillips: often tell the story of, um, for example, I, when I learned the cello early on about the, probably about the time I met you.
My music would be absolutely black with, um, with very heartfelt messages to myself. You know, think about the sky, you know, release your little finger. Um, every single note had a direction on it, right? Mm-hmm. Was all incredibly, um, it, it was incredibly stressful actually.
Very much, uh, a really, uh, profound turning point was, was when I played for the amazing, one of my favorite musicians in the world, Andra Schiff, the pianist, when I played for em a masterclass, and I played through a Beethoven, this very black beeth Beethoven Sonata. I’d marked all this stuff and I did it, and I worked so hard to really, I mean, my intention was really good, you know?
Speaker 5: Mm-hmm.
Ruth Phillips: And through the, the, the first part, and then there’s the repeat, right? The, the first section repeats, and I started playing the repeat, and he stopped me and he said, once I believe you twice, you are a liar. And it shook my universe because what did I, what could I do? I’d have to then take another score and make that equally black and equally different.
Or then I had the choice, do I dare to be in this moment and follow what’s arising? And that’s a totally different way of making music. And it doesn’t matter whether you’ve got score or not, actually. And I really. Believe that we can be an absolutely in that improvisatory spirit of, of wonder really, you know?
Speaker 5: Mm-hmm.
Ruth Phillips: Following, setting something in motion, but also following it. When do we step back? When do we rest back and actually allow something to unfold in the way that we’ve set it in motion? And, and that’s a really beautiful relationship. And then you can, it’s, it’s a bit, I often talk about game of tennis.
The tennis player, the, the ball leaves the racket. The tennis player doesn’t run with the ball, pluck it over the net, bounce it as high as he wants it to bounce. There’s a moment where you allow what you’ve set in motion to happen and you step back and you are kind of CE in a re receptive mode. And I didn’t know that at all.
Not any, and the stress of not having that element in our playing and the injury that comes and then stage fright because. Because we actually do not know what it’s like to not be in total control of every single Manano, nano, micro.
Julia Norton: Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Oh, Ruth, that’s a, that’s such a great story. What did I have to ask?
What happened for a second? I mean, did you play for him anymore or that, was that it?
Ruth Phillips: No, I think that, I don’t even remember really. I mean, I just, right, because
Julia Norton: that was the moment. Yeah. Yeah.
Ruth Phillips: I was so shocked. I mean, I literally, you know, one of those moments in your life when you
Julia Norton: Oh, yeah.
Ruth Phillips: Everything you’ve believed in doesn’t exist anymore.
Yes, it was. Yeah, it was really shocking and so important. Um,
Julia Norton: yeah. And it’s terrible, isn’t it? Because I don’t know about you and I, and I’m guessing this might be true, but I feel like I spend a lot of my time working with people who, uh, like many of my clients for the last 20 years, right, who have been through.
Musical theater degrees or vocal performance degrees or whatever, and have been crushed by the process, like all the, the judging, the perfectionism, the harshness of how that world can be. I think I, I hope, I think it is changing somewhat in the approach. Um, and I dunno if you, did you ever watch that movie Whiplash?
Oh my God. Oh my God. Did you
Speaker 5: ever
Julia Norton: see
Speaker 5: it?
Ruth Phillips: I must watch it.
Julia Norton: Oh, you must watch it. It’s, it’s extraordinary. But it will have you, I mean, I was actually on the edge of my seat, like wanting to reach out and console the kid that was suffering this teacher. But, um, these are people who had the impulse of, now I suppose we could also go back and say, well, where.
Where did the impulse to create music come from? Was it like, you know, family pressure, like conditioning of, we’ve all been singers, therefore you’re gonna be a singer? Or did it really come from this place where I feel like, you know, I certainly felt just the impulse to sing. But then I imagine if I had gone into a situation like that and been criticized at left and right about my approach and da, like what that would’ve done to me.
And I feel like possibly a lot of our work is kind of unpicking the armoring that’s been developed over the years so that people can find, here we go with that self word again though, but their kind of true self underneath all of that. Which can let go and just express, connect, be in the moment with their music, right?
Ruth Phillips: Yeah. Yeah. And it’s interesting, isn’t it? The language of teaching is something that I’m, I’m really, um, often heartbroken to hear the way that I, I was spoken to too, and therefore speak to myself. Um. I think, you know, I, uh, a, a teacher’s role is very much like a parent, which is why this must never happen because, or it’s like a therapist role, you know, these sacred roles where, um, one needs the language of kindness.
Mm-hmm. And where in teaching, for some reason, it’s been accepted to not have that language. Right. I mean, I’m constantly amazed to hear that, that the actual internalized dialogues that
Speaker 5: Yes.
Ruth Phillips: That people come up with when you say, how do you speak to yourself and where did you first hear that? And it’s heartbreaking actually, because that when somebody says, how much practice have you done?
And you, you know, let’s say you, you’re doing 10 hours practice a day. What is happening in your mind during that practice? I think we practice far too much. I’m a big believer in not practicing very much, but doing yoga and mindfulness and um, I think our body knows a lot better what to do. I think we can be on holiday, for example, when we are playing.
I believe I really have experience now that I can be at rest at some form of rest, physically, mentally, emotionally, probably maybe 75, 80% of the time. Ha,
Julia Norton: that’s amazing.
Ruth Phillips: But I didn’t, I thought it was like zero, zero rest, and because of these messages, so what are we practicing? You know, what are, what am I saying to myself,
Julia Norton: right?
Ruth Phillips: And I’m practicing that. I’m ke, I’m repeating this inner negative dialogue, which is basically saying shit. But also there’s, there are more nuanced versions of that, which is how much information are you actually giving yourself? Because if we’re not, if we’re agitated in our mind, um, we are not actually going to be ha giving ourselves any information.
For example, I, I, I always give this example, but it’s a good one. When I, when I play a no attitude, then. I can, I can get super stressed and say, oh God, you can’t play. You’re so crap. I can do that. Which is quite possible because we have often be spoken to like that and we’ll,
Speaker 5: oh
yeah,
Ruth Phillips: or just say it’s outta tune and seemingly nicely and wisely and everything.
But actually when I think about that statement, that is just a judgment. There’s no information in that piece of, in that, that, that phrase which says, is it sharp or flat? Mm, which is kind of important given that what next I have to do is prepare the movement differently. If I don’t have the information, then I’m just gonna get into a state of success.
So the subtleties and the nuances of what’s the actual mental dialogue is, is so important. And that’s what we’re practicing. We’re practicing that when we have this dialogue with ourselves as we play our piece and we try and make it better and. So we can be practicing incredibly negative, um, self-talk.
Julia Norton: I mean, it had never really occurred to me how much you’re just kind of conditioning yourself to abuse yourself with it. Oh, that wasn’t right. Oh, that was too fast. Oh, that wasn’t, oh, I’m such an idiot. Oh, you know, and. The things that maybe not even your teacher has said to you, but it’s your internal. If that wasn’t right, then there’s some, some, there’s some fault and, and it’s probably me, right?
Like, you know, there’s something wrong with me.
Speaker 5: Yeah,
Julia Norton: absolutely. And I think it comes down to this much deeper, uh, question of how we are wrong, right? Yeah. And not good enough to do it. And, and, and the whole. The kind of, I think of it as a kind of a mind freeze when, when something happens that say, let’s say you play something and you go, oh, I’m flat.
And then you tense up and you can’t quite, you can’t hear it sharp or flat or whatever. Um, the same thing happens if I’m in an improvisational situation or something, or I feel like I’m already out of my depth and then somebody suddenly will cue me to improvise if I panic. Um, I, I can’t do anything. Like if I, I seize up all my ability to hear the chord, hear what just happened, all, all that.
The lack of being present, because I start running my old stories, right. As soon as we’re running our old stories and we’re not, we’re not present. Yeah. And, and we can’t. Do the, that we’re there for. So, so there’s so much about self trust, right? There’s so much about that
Ruth Phillips: there isn’t, that there’s a key moment in that when we, when we do, um, CCLE Sharp and that state that you are describing, um, that in that moment we can, we be kind to ourself because we ultimately, that is a, is a self protection mechanism.
Yeah. And if we can turn to that and say that my teacher, Jack Cornfield has a lovely phrase. He always says, thank you for, for trying to help me. I’m okay just now. Yes. Okay. You are there, you’re trying to help me. Um, um, so there’s the, we, we get sort of, um, kind of aversive to the aversion. You know, we push away the thing rather than actually saying, okay, I’m, I’m experiencing fear.
Story the other day, I, I can’t remember what it was. It was, um, a teacher, Martin Elwood told this story of, of, uh, some venerable monk or something. I can’t remember. I’m not very good at remembering details, so forgive that bit. That’s
Julia Norton: okay.
Ruth Phillips: But had never, uh, had, never, uh, swam, had never been in water, and was, was teaching along alongside, um, uh, somebody who happened to be a sort of professional swimmer and really was wanted to encourage this vulnerable monk to, to, to experience the joy of being in the water.
And so he managed to take him and he got in the pool or whatever it was, and he put his, finally put his head under water and then he head. Poked up again, and he just said, fear, fear, fear, fear. It was just like, okay, fear arising. It’s just fear. Yeah. Then we pile on the other stuff and the, the Buddhists have a wonderful expression, which is the second arrow, which is where you.
You experience suffering because life, hands out suffering, you know, that’s part of life. But then we throw ourselves the judgment of the suffering, and that’s where the real suffering is. Right? So you experience the fear and then you hate yourself for being FFR frightened, or you identify with being, I am frightened, I’m a frightened person.
Then that, as you say, just said, you know? Then you create, that reinforces the old story, and then you’re off. If one can just say, okay, fear arising. Okay, hello, fear, you know, and there’s nothing wrong with fear. It’s an absolutely genuine mechanism that is there to protect us and arises in the wrong place sometimes, you know, because of various triggers or various, and we can, we can actually welcome it, you know?
Julia Norton: Yes. No, I, I, I think that’s, uh, well, well put, um. I’m thinking that because as you’re talking as well, I’m thinking, okay, so how do you say to your, you know, recent graduate violinist or somebody who’s going to do their first kind of big, prestigious concept, how do you give them, so obviously you’re gonna be working with them on.
What is happening in that moment? Oh, I’m noticing that my car is beating a little fast, or I’m noticing that my palms are maybe a little sweatier than they would normally be. I mean, how do you set them up to the actual point where they are going on stage or. Taking their seat, however you guys get set up, like what’s them, what’s your moment?
How, how do you do that? For anybody that’s listening that might wanna just kind of try that approach as a singer, right? Like of how to tune in.
Ruth Phillips: Okay. There are several, several things that could feed into that. Um. And one would be the way I’d work with somebody about practicing not being in control, because I think one of the fears is losing control.
And if we haven’t experienced playing or singing, when we are not in control of every single microsecond, then we are gonna be terrified because. We are in a situation where we are extending beyond our own. You know, we are actually giving something, we’re offering something, and it’ll demand that we let go of control.
So one aspect of the way I work is I really practice in not just mental, when mentally. Emotionally and also physically, you know, following a gesture, actually setting a gesture up and allowing yourself to follow that gesture. You have to, we so we stand, practice the standing back and that is a really wonderful way to, to um, deal.
With the fear of losing control. I think that is one of the biggest fears mm-hmm. Of losing control in front of other people.
Julia Norton: Oh yeah, absolutely. Yeah.
Ruth Phillips: What we wanna do is, is, is, you know, it’s glorious to not be in control in, in front of other people. It’s a fantastic experience to let go in front of other people.
Speaker 5: Mm-hmm.
Ruth Phillips: Because we’ve worked in the elements of control that we need, but because we don’t need so many really very little. And we’re at rest, we’re at ease. We are actually. So it’s, it’s, so we’ve got the space to actually enjoy and actually really set in motion something, but if we’re, yeah, so there’s, that’s one aspect.
So I could, I could go. Mm-hmm.
Speaker 5: No
Ruth Phillips: good. Another aspect that I work quite, and this is very much about the, the compassion practices and the self-compassion practices that, um, that I’ve been working with in, in the mindfulness training I do a, one of the meditations is, uh, it’s a beautiful meditation, which often brings up quite an emotional response.
When we do it, you sit in front of another person, but one can do this with an, with an, an audience in, in one’s in Ima imagination. Mm. Um, I quite often do this before a concert and the, it’s called just Like Me. So you go through a set of phrases, I won’t say them all, but this, this person has suffered this person.
Wants to be loved just like me, and you go on and on and on, and you and your sense of, uh, shared humanity and shared suffering, and so that you actually lessen the grip that that projection that you have on the audience of your, your basically your inner critic. Mm-hmm. Which has been internalized, practiced by an
Speaker 5: mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Ruth Phillips: Fully there and very strong. Then we project it out to the audience. So there are ways, there are techniques of softening that and actually remembering our common humanity and remembering our common imperfection and our common longing to be touched and, you know, emotionally touched and of course specifically, but I mean, we are there to touch.
Our audience, they are there because they long to be touched and, and those things are. So actually really having a practice of remembering that, remembering that they are not perfect. They’re not as, are we not perfect? Yeah.
Julia Norton: Yeah. Awful love. Yeah.
Ruth Phillips: I mean you, there’s a kind of thing you can get it anywhere online, just like me, meditation, and it’s really powerful, I think particularly for us music performers.
Julia Norton: Well, and it, and it also brings us back to this, the power of our imagination, right, of our mind. To be able to sit quietly somewhere else and visualize our audience in front of us before the event, right? And to go through that. I think that’s where a lot of the fear comes from, isn’t it is of, but I haven’t experienced that before.
This thing is a new thing and therefore it’s terrifying or, and so if we can kind of imagine it before the event, we can train our brain, our ego to, to say, we’ve done this before, and they’re just like me, right? And everybody, you know, so there’s something where you can kind of let go of your grip a little bit because it’s not such a new thing.
Ruth Phillips: Yeah. Absolutely. And I think that there’s, there’s no, I mean, this is why I say we, you know, we need to do as much less instrumental practice. Mm-hmm. And much practice. This is not something you can just decide before you go onto stage and say to yourself, like me, it doesn’t work. It’s not enough. The deep practice that has has takes time to sink and soak in.
Julia Norton: Yeah.
Ruth Phillips: You know?
Julia Norton: Yeah.
Ruth Phillips: And Yeah. Um, absolutely. It’s, uh, there, there are other approaches which I find quite astonishing. Like imagine the audience naked or I read somewhere, you know, you have to boost yourself up so you are, you feel like Superman before you go on stage. And these are all techniques of, of, of increasing the separation.
I mean, they’re basically adverse, you know, that you’re just kind of turning on his head like, I’m the powerful one. And you are the weak one.
Julia Norton: Yes.
Ruth Phillips: That’s not gonna bring ease.
Julia Norton: Yeah.
Ruth Phillips: That’s, that’s only, that’s not gonna bring peace, you know, in any way in the world. Not on stage nowhere. Right?
Julia Norton: Yeah.
Ruth Phillips: We want be together, you know,
Julia Norton: and Wow, what a, uh, message really just to, and I think from your mindfulness practice and also from, you know, my Jungian coach stuff as well, it’s the, it’s like wor, it’s about working on yourself enough.
Or getting present enough with yourself, becoming aware enough of your own projections, your own shadow, your own conditioning, trying to, um, integrate the stories. Notice the things you know, not shame ourselves, not judge ourselves, or be such a harsh critic so that we can recognize humanity in everyone and reduce the insane.
Polarizing. I don’t know what is happening in the world right now, but it feels like, it feels incredibly and it’s, it’s interesting because I was actually talking to somebody else in a podcast the other day and I was saying the more out of control the world feels, the more my impulses to wanna control everything I can control.
Like, whether it’s my, uh, getting rid of my emails or tidying up my desk or, or, or, or making sure that my whatever. And I noticed it’s a clenching, right? It’s there, there’s a, it’s a clenching and it’s about, uh, the fear of the unknown because everything feels out of control. And yet really what we, we should all be doing is practicing.
The understanding of our shared humanity, and not only all the people, but all the animals and all the plants and all the like, all of it. Right?
Ruth Phillips: Absolutely. And I, I, I think it’s, you know, we can, we can be so. In our lives, you know, we can, it’s very difficult. What can we do, you know, what can we do, uh, about war?
And basically we are living in a very scary time. And, um, it’s very weird to leave. Oh yeah, I’m a musician. I’m just gonna go and play some bar. Oh, hot. You know, that we can take that approach. But, and I really feel music is very healing.
Julia Norton: Yes.
Ruth Phillips: And has the potential to be very healing. And I’m, I’m very committed to anything I can do to, to make sure that it is, um, a peaceful environment and that starts in our own inner environment.
It really does. And we, and it’s hard, you know, there’s a. The compassion practice in the mindfulness in the meditation is called meta practice, where you send kind wishes. You probably know it know, I’m sure. Yeah. I experimented with the traditional phrases when I did this month of meta, which was just something I set myself, I did a meta practice and sending myself and other people and the, you know, the way you, I’ll just explain it for you.
You start. Okay. In the, in the original, um, in the original tradition, the Buddhist tradition, you would start with yourself. You send a series of phrases, uh, loving kindness phrases. So may you be healthy, may you be happy, may you be at peace. May you be filled with loving kindness. Um, et cetera, et cetera.
May you, okay. So may you be free. Uh, you, it’s kind of, there are many, there’s some traditional ones, and then mm-hmm. And then you start in, in the, originally you’d start with yourself, but in our culture, that’s very different. Difficult actually to, because. It to find that sense of warmth in one’s own heart towards oneself is not in our culture.
No. There was a story about Sharon’s Berg who went to, was the, she said something, some one time to the Dalai Lama. She said, so what your holiness, what about all this self hatred? You know? And he said, what’s that? ‘
Speaker 5: cause
Ruth Phillips: our culture, we we’re riddled, riddled with self. So the people who brought these traditions over from, from the east to the west.
Um, have, have adapted that I think very wisely to start the practice with somebody or something e either a pet or a teacher, or a loved one who, with whom you feel very easy for whom you feel loved very easily. Um, so it really kind of warms up the heart, you know, and then we can give the word, the, the phrases to ourself, and then we choose somebody neutral.
We say the same phrases, and so may, that may be somebody you see in the supermarket, or
Speaker 5: mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Ruth Phillips: Have any particular feelings about, and then you choose a difficult person. And then you offer the phrases to, um, all humanity, all sentient beings, so animals, plants, whatever. And it’s a really powerful practice.
And, um, I dunno, where, where did that come from, Julia? It
Julia Norton: came from,
Ruth Phillips: it doesn’t really matter. We can go on. It
Julia Norton: doesn’t matter. It doesn’t matter.
Ruth Phillips: Yeah. Anyway. The language of, you know, kindness towards oneself is, is
Julia Norton: yeah, I, I, I think that is, um, juicy and it made me remember that, and I don’t know what came first, but I know that.
Ago, I remember you sharing an example of a child who, who was really, really stiff with the cello, uh, and very, uh, fraught with anxiety about it. And you had said to him, you know. Play for your pet. You know, he had a beloved, I can’t remember whether it was a cat or a dog, I’m just vaguely remembering the story from decades ago.
Mm-hmm. But you saying, and how that completely changed his posture breathing, like how he was playing and, and it’s something I do with singers as well.
Ruth Phillips: Yeah.
Julia Norton: It’ll be, you know, imagine that you’re singing this to your dog because we are so much more able to give our love to this. Creature. Right. And, and if, and I love the idea of then taking it back.
’cause I’ve done that meta, uh, um, practice for a while, but I’ve always started with self. It never occurred to me to do it any other way. But I’m totally gonna start with my dog next time.
Ruth Phillips: Yeah. I
Julia Norton: mean, it’s gonna be totally different.
Ruth Phillips: Yeah, yeah, yeah. And you can come back to your dog as well.
Julia Norton: Yeah. I love that.
Ruth Phillips: That’s that one of the things that, uh, is yeah, that I often actually, if I’ve got a cat in my lower back when I’m playing the cello, that really works because that there’s that softness, but it also allows, invites you to rest back and soften into your back, you know? And Oh, that whole process. I mean, that whole part of our, because we’re so.
Frontally orientated in performance, particularly obviously. Yeah.
Julia Norton: Yeah.
Ruth Phillips: Moving into extension all the time
Julia Norton: Yeah.
Ruth Phillips: Actually allows you to soften back and, and give all your energy backwards and in a soft and, and, uh, gentle way. That’s really powerful.
Julia Norton: So, which actually reminds me, we, I, I almost run out of time before I’ve asked you more specifically about.
Breath and breathing. And that, because you were saying something interesting when we were just saying a little chat the other day about the exhale and, and do you wanna just talk just generally a little bit about how you approach breath with musicians? Yeah.
Ruth Phillips: Um, well, it’s such a, I mean, in terms of performance, it’s such a wonderful, um, balancer, isn’t it?
You take in and you, uh, let, let. And this, this perfect balance of these two things, which we mostly are pushing out. We are not really often, well, we, it’s quite common that this is expressed through, uh, negative, well, negative or difficult or problematic breathing patterns.
Speaker 5: Mm-hmm.
Ruth Phillips: Taking in too much air or, or actually not being able to, to take in enough air or hyperventilation or hyperventilation.
I, I was, I experienced as a young musician ’cause I actually couldn’t let go of anything that I couldn’t breathe out.
Speaker 5: Mm-hmm.
Ruth Phillips: This amazing thing that exists in our body at every single moment is saying to us, you have to have a balance. One needs the other and the space in between. And that resting place of non-doing of, of quiet where the two meet actually and one returns to, and the other one it arises from.
And it, to me that is just, I mean, how many things does that speak about? You know, the seasons are day or it’s absolutely universal. Every single musical phrase somehow has that shape. Ev every shape in nature has that sort of, so it’s kind of perfection within, you know, within our own body available to us at every moment.
Speaker 5: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Ruth Phillips: Not mad about the breath, really. Um, recently I’ve been particularly interested in what happens, particularly in the spine because I do, I work with a wonderful yoga teacher called Peter Blackaby who, um. Has really taught me a lot about, I mean, there, there are certain things that happen. So when we inhale, the breastbone rises.
Um, and so we think we get taller, right? This is our big thing. I inhale and I get taller, stand up, shoulders back, all that sort of stuff. Inhale, right? But actually, yes, the breast bone rises. Also on the inhale, we get wider from front to back. So the, the curve of the spine on the inhale is, uh, actually made, um, more exaggerated.
Speaker 5: Mm-hmm.
Ruth Phillips: On the exhale it releases so we actually get taller and longer and deeper on the exhale. So the idea that we sort of just release on the exhale and that we pull up on the inhale. What I love about this is it’s all happening all the time. There is no, it’s just like this, you know, it’s all contained, like really like the yin and the yang side, you know?
So as we, as our, um, so as our, we get wider from front to back, we actually get shorter in our spine. So that’s an amazing thing because that there’s this beautiful video that I, I, I often show of a cheetah running where the spine, you can really see the gathering and the lengthening of the spine. And what I find increasing, so this moved into extension and flex, which in yoga we, what we in yoga call extension infection.
Um, and what I find really fascinating is that that exists in almost every, um. Sort of culture in a way, like in, uh, where what really interests me is in our, um, kind of pushing, um, breastbone up, uh, going into this kind of military pushing out position and then retreating. So in, in western psychology, you would call that, uh, fight or flight.
And in, um, in yoga, probably you call it flexion extension. And, and in, in, in Buddhist psychology, you call it clinging and aversion. So you are, you are actually, you know, really clinging something or you are kind of running
Julia Norton: away from something. And
Ruth Phillips: what I love is that this, this movement exists in the spine as we breathe every in breath and out breath.
So we kind of, how can we find our, our. Jack Cornfield says our seat in the midst of it all. And I love that phrase, how can we find a place that, you know, sure we can move towards and sure we can move away from, and can we find that flow where we’re not fixed into one of those positions in life. And I think probably all of us have a bias.
I’m certainly a, I’m a, I’m a definitely a kind of, um, extension bias.
Speaker 5: Mm-hmm.
Ruth Phillips: Push forward and attack. Instead of, uh, instead of retreat and actually experiencing that through the breath in the body so that you are away from ideas and concept, but you’re actually really experiencing that movement. It’s so amazing.
And you then you can go back again in. Going back to the subject of stage fright, and you can go back, you can actually just, this is another thing that one can do before performance is just feel that kind of movement towards pushing out. Mm. Movement towards, um, fleeing or, you know, and just experience that, uh, in the body is really amazing.
And then you can just come back and settle back into a kind of, you don’t have to stay there. It’s not a fixed place, but just knowing that middle. And going back to the breath, I think that that is just such a, it’s such a beautiful way to experience that. It’s very, very subtle and it’s, it’s been really powerful for me.
’cause I’ve, I’ve really under, through this work with the spine, I’ve really understood the power of actually releasing up and down. So getting longer, um, on the exhale is, is, um, has been, yeah, it’s been amazing.
Julia Norton: Oh, I love that. I kind of, I’ve been, as you’ve been talking, I’ve been kind of sitting and trying to, can you just take us through two breaths, like with that focus?
Ruth, can you just like, for the audience listening, so, so that they can get a sense of, so you can like, help us visualize how that is.
Ruth Phillips: Yeah. I mean it’s, it’s, um, so yeah, just you, you, what you can do is you can put your hand on your chest. Um, and you can notice that the breast bone rises as you breathe in.
So that’s one way the breath moves. Mm-hmm. And as you talk about, often, you can also sense that the, the ribs get wider.
Speaker 5: Mm-hmm.
Ruth Phillips: The inhale and then. And then just, um, actually I can’t do this without being visual, so I’m gonna try, there’s a really nice exercise, but I’d have to show you so I can’t see on audio.
So then just maybe taking an in-breath and concentrating on the front, widening from the front to the back so that your upper spine, your thoracic spine, um, is moving back.
Julia Norton: It’s almost like deepening, right? Rather, because when I think of widening, I think of a cross.
Ruth Phillips: Yeah. Widening. It’s almost
Julia Norton: like, it’s like Yeah, yeah.
Front to back though. I love that. Yeah. Yeah.
Ruth Phillips: So a actually, if we only concentrate on the breast bone moving up, we’ll probably flatten the thoracic spine. But actually what’s happening on the in breath is the thoracic spine is, is rounding. So if you had a hand on your back on your thoracic spine, you would breathe into your hand and it would meet on the in breath.
You can do that if you can reach your,
Julia Norton: I can feel that I can’t, I’ve got dodgy shoulders, but I can feel that just from you bringing my attention to it. And
Ruth Phillips: that’s
Julia Norton: very, in a way that I don’t think I’d noticed it before.
Ruth Phillips: So that’s, so then on the exhale. You can take it is really you and, and the exhale you can put your hand on your lower mm-hmm.
On your lumbar spine that I need to breathe to remember, and, and on the exhale, you can actually feel your lumbar spine moving into your hand.
Speaker 5: Mm-hmm.
Ruth Phillips: So that’s a, it’s actually getting longer because the curve is getting less.
Speaker 5: Right?
Ruth Phillips: So the, the, so as on the exhale, then also the released. So that’s just a, they’re very connected. So as that softens, you can imagine on the exhale, on each exhale.
Imagine that the, the spine is like unscrewing
Speaker 5: mm,
Ruth Phillips: twisting, releasing up and releasing down on each exhale, and as you inhale, you are gathering the spine. So it’s very different from being pulled up on the inhale and slumping on the exhale.
Julia Norton: Hmm. That’s lovely. That’s, that’s a, that’s a very, uh, different focus.
My, and I find as soon as I try and do a different focus on my breathing, I start trying to interfere with things and like, and I start finding myself like holding my breath or, or doing all these funny things because it’s a new thing and everything. My ego’s like, I dunno how to do that. I, I’m gonna have to start controlling everything.
That’s an interesting thing to notice.
Ruth Phillips: It’s all happening. It’s all happening.
Julia Norton: Yeah.
Ruth Phillips: That’s only one thing. That’s, that’s just the movement of the spine. And then there’s the diaphragm movement, which is different.
Julia Norton: The
Ruth Phillips: ribs, which is different.
Julia Norton: Yeah.
Ruth Phillips: And the beauty of it is it’s not black and white. It’s not one thing.
But if we have a bias to be, to pull up on the in breath. Then this really helpful that we can actually stop and widen and gather on the inbreath
Julia Norton: Yes.
Ruth Phillips: And lengthen on the outbreath that is happening in our body somewhere. But if we have a different bias and we have a bias of collapsing on the in breath, then that’s not helpful.
You know, of course the, the diaphragm is releasing up and for us as, uh, as instrumentalists. We think of pulling up all the time. There’s a lot of pulling in our language about,
Julia Norton: ah,
Ruth Phillips: and, and like the spine releases up and down, it releases into length. So does the d diaphragm release up, doesn’t it? From the pressure of, of the in breath On the exhale, it releases up.
It’s not pulled. It’s not stretched. Ah. So I think our language around these things is very forced. And like even speaking about yoga, you know, we’re all speaking about stretching and I’m much more interested in releasing. And as you, you speak a lot about biases, and I think that’s a really important thing.
Where is my bias? Can I let that bias go and let it be, let my body be,
Julia Norton: right?
Ruth Phillips: Yeah.
Julia Norton: Right. And I think t taking our language as a first port of call often. You know, ca catching those things like you did right at the beginning of our conversation. But catching the habitual things that we say that keep reinforcing old, you know, behaviors or old, uh, beliefs about ourselves are, um, connection.
Have a free voice, right. Our permission to take up space.
Speaker 5: Mm-hmm.
Julia Norton: Right. Without feeling like that’s just, if I take up space, then I’m basically Brene Brown stepping into the arena. Right. I’m stepping into the arena, which just feels like, oh, I mean, I love what she’s saying, and the principle of it is, you know, because, because it does feel like when we take up space.
With our song, with our musical expression, with our self, with our real, full, honest self. It feels vulnerable sometimes. Yeah. You know, it can feel very vulnerable. And I think, uh, so checking the thoughts we have to ourselves, checking the language we’re using with ourselves and others. I love the coming from kindness first kind of approach, you know.
Ruth Phillips: It’s really a beautiful quality.
Julia Norton: Yeah, right.
Ruth Phillips: Given very negative. You know, we fight against vulnerability. Why? There’s nothing against, ’cause we
Julia Norton: don’t want the feelings, right. Because we don’t want the feelings that go with.
Ruth Phillips: All the practices that that connect us and make us not alone. You know? Because when we step out into that arena, we feel alone, but we’re not, you know?
And I think that again, is not something you can say to yourself right before you walk on stage. You can’t just say, you’re not alone. It’s not enough.
Julia Norton: Yeah. You have to practice.
Ruth Phillips: It has to be a real, something like you, like I have to practice the map of the E-flat major on my cello. I have to know absolutely every single Yeah.
We do have, so I have to practice that. I have to know that map. Yeah. It almost, it’s like rewire, you know, it’s like remapping the mind, remapping the body, remap. So I’m remapping my, you know, uh, my message. I’m alone when I’m, and, and the practice is the remapping, and you can’t do it. It can’t happen with just one, you know, easy phrase that you tell yourself before you walk on stage and personally find meditation is one way.
Um, and you are finding, you are always through work and mm-hmm. Anything that brings us the practice of, of, uh, connecting to ourselves with kindness and to our shared is, is gonna, is gonna bring ease and Yes, and, and it is possible. It is possible for, yes,
Speaker 5: you’re right. Yes, you’re right.
Ruth Phillips: And I remember when I was a kid looking up at Steven Isli, who’s one of my cello heroes playing on stage and thought, oh my God, he looks like he’s actually enjoying himself.
How is that possible? It’s like another universe to me. Yeah. That sense that somebody could be comfortable and actually enjoy themselves whilst sharing music and now that’s how I feel all the time. You know? That’s so
Julia Norton: amazing. Uh, and if there was anything I haven’t asked you today or any, any other like big nugget you really want people to take away?
Ruth Phillips: Um, no, not really. I’m, I’m, my, my word, my, the two words that I’m sitting with at the moment because of what’s going on in the world is, is peace and and surrender as well. Um, I think that, uh, yeah, I’m really. Think we shouldn’t underestimate the power that we have each one of us to, to start to have a peaceful heart and how hard that is.
I mean, to really be honest about the walls that we have in our own hearts and be, bring ourself compassion, you know, full for that. And, and it’s ongoing. And one, oh, I remember what I was gonna say the other, when I rambled on about something else, the, the meta practice. The things that actually I practice with and still practice with, and I’m still really, you know, I still struggle with it is may there be, may I experience peace in my own heart because that is a, yeah.
It’s really where it all starts and I think that that could move mountains, really.
Julia Norton: Yeah. Yeah. Well said. Beautiful. Ruth, this has been, uh, such a pleasure. I really, really appreciate. I mean, it’s a shame that we have to like host a podcast to have a conversation, but I really, I love that you took the time to talk to us today and share.
Your marvelous insights and your big hearts, uh, with everybody. Uh, how should people, I’m gonna put your links to your website and such in the show notes. Yeah. But how would you like people to get in contact with you if they wanted to approach you about work or to follow you on social media or what’s the best way for people to find you?
Ruth Phillips: Name? The website in the website just has, uh, all my contact details and, uh, I have a mailing list, so that’s one. Great. You know, I’m on that terrible thing called Facebook and I try to do Instagram, so
Julia Norton: yeah,
Ruth Phillips: I what my Instagram is. Sorry, I’m not very good at that sort of stuff.
Julia Norton: We can sort that later. I’ll put, I’ll put links in the show notes, everyone for you to be able to follow Ruth and get her goodness.
And if you are, um, in addition to being a singer, actor, voiceover person who, whoever you happen to be, listen to this podcast if you are a string player. You must definitely have Ruth on your map. So Ruth Phillips, thank you so much for joining us today.
Ruth Phillips: Thank you, Julia. It’s been an absolute delight.
Julia Norton: What a fantastic conversation.
Go and check her out. Ruth phillips.com. Look at her current workshops and events, share them. And if you are in the uk, Europe, France, uh, that’s where you’re gonna find most of her workshops. Although she does come to California from time to time. Um, you can also check out. Workshops with me are your free voice.com/events and freebies are on my resources page.
Uh, stay in touch and let me know what you wanna hear interviews about. Okay. Take care everyone. Bye.
